lol.. because Macs are what the 'cool kids' buy. In my eyes computers are like basketball shoes. Does it mean that the dude with $200 shoes is better then the one with $50 kicks? I believe as long as you have the requirements for a speedy computer, the brand shouldn't matter.
And about iOS specific app development, you don't need a Mac, just write your application using PhoneGap and pay the tiny fee to convert your app into ALL platforms..
Just my two cents, but im also a Windows guy and will be forever.
@andy_unleash Macs don't have an advantage over PCs when it comes to hardware. If anything PCs win that department because for any given amount of money you can have a more powerful PC than Mac, and also PCs are easily upgradable.
Therefore the hardware can't be a reason for Web Developers to move to Macs.
The majority of online tutorials around web design are taught on macs, including industry leaders such as our very own Chris Coyier. Seeing these workflows when you are new to the industry may be a huge factor in thinking you need a mac.
To me this seems to be the most valid reason people gave so far.
Now the next question is why these "trendsetters" switch to Macs?
Maybe it has something to do with the popularity of iOS devices and the need to own a Mac to develop for them? Maybe they were intentionally trying to be different from the "crowd"? Maybe they got the trend from their colleagues who had Graphic Design background?
@croydon86 Those are just the default system settings.
I've got my CPU OC'd to 3.2GHz and my RAM set to 1866MHz with custom timings, as well as have a secondary graphics card used just for Physix processing. I've got the GTX 580 OC'd, along with custom fan speeds set to trigger at specific temperature levels.
It destroys anything I throw at it. Graphics, 3D rendering, video editing, gaming: you name it.
Needless to say, there has been no reason to upgrade any of the hardware as of yet.
@JohnMotylJr - Yeah absolutely right, all mac owners buy them to "look cool". Not to improve their workflows, better serve their customers and working styles and be more efficient for clients at all. What a bunch of tools we are LoL1!
Needless to say, there has been no reason to upgrade any of the hardware as of yet.
Believe it or not, this is how many people feel. Truth is, I have a powerful 8 core mac pro, which may not be as powerful as yours, but if I had the choice of a mac or a more powerful pc, I would choose mac for the reasons I stated in my first comment in this discussion.
@andy_unleash If your Mac works for you. Kudos! Though I must add that after you buy a Mac you're 'locked' into the hardware you buy. You CAN upgrade your hardware, but it'll cost you (especially now with the unibody) and you'll ultimately hit the ceiling that Apple designates for that model.
PC's are much more 'upgradable' and 'customizable' AFTER the initial build (within reason). You can upgrade pieces to your hearts content, and even though there is the same limit as Macs it's a much wider range.
Macs have less powerful hardware than PCs (usually 3 - 6 months behind the curve) but they use it more efficiently than PCs if you're not a tech-savvy user. PCs usually have a lower price tag and more options (Window, Linux, etc.).
At the end of the day. Does it work? Then you're good.
I don't think you should only consider the performance. Graphics and fonts render much much better on Mac than a PC. Even though I'm currently on a PC, I would choose OS X over Windows any day. The UI of software is just better.
@chrisburton agreed! Fonts and graphics in most cases do render better on a Mac, that's just the software. I do all my web surfing on my Macbook for that reason. As far as the UI, it's subjective, I personally like both for different reasons, but again it's subjective.
I personally like and own both. I'm a gamer so of course I've got a nice gaming rig set up but I love software like Sequel Pro and Transmit, which are on OS X. For freelance and home web development, I use my MacBook. For gaming, game development (I do both), and music production, I use my PC. But while I learned game development on a PC, I learned front end development on a Mac because that is what was made available to me at the time.
At work I develop in the .NET environment so it's lots of Microsoft stuff.
Unix based OS + Software support + UX design = Increased productivity + awesomeness. That is all.
I don't like Apple users in general. I remember trying to find out why I couldn't copy/paste when I first started using a mac, and the response was "Why would you want to copy/paste? Just move the files". You always end up getting a defensive comment instead of a solution that actually solves your specific problem - Almost as if your question is offensive to ask.
"Does this mean that the Web Developers demographic are people who are richer than people in most other industries?"
One thing I'm just not seeing anyone make an argument for is this is definitely not the case if you do any real research on the differences. Windows people are trained to think that in general, Mac is far more expensive.
Mac is, in some cases, more costly but generally they are not that far away. People tend to compare apples and oranges and then debate the price. For example, you can't build a small quiet windows box for the same price you can buy a Mac Mini. You make a lot of compromises and it's still a huge ass noisy box.
You've also got to realize that once you are within the Apple ecosystem, upgrades are far less costly. In Microsoft ecosystem, a PC that is 2 years old is pretty much worthless to sell. An iMac bought 2 years ago sells for about 75% of what you paid for it. So upgrading to a new iMac is about the same price as a windows user pays for a new video card. As it stands now, the small upgrades I made on my Mac Mini actually will net me about $175 from the purchase price + the upgrades I've put in it.
An iMac may look expensive until you actually shop for a good quality monitor and find out that while you can buy a crappy TFT 27" monitor for $299, there isn't much give in spending between $800 and $1100 on a IPS 27" monitor. The extra $400 that goes into getting the rest of the specs for a 27" iMac seems pretty reasonable when you get into the details.
Move over to laptops - having used windows laptops for so many years, you finally come to the realization that buying the $500 Dell special is just a waste of time. You realize you got to spend some real money to get a good quality, long lasting laptop. So now you're shopping for ultrabooks that are $1000+. All of a sudden those MBP's that everyone bitches about the expense are now cheaper than the ones you are shopping for.
It's also not quite fair to really compare specs. The dual core Mac Mini I use for work runs circles around my quad core decked out PC because windows over time slows down (you know, when your hard drive just rambles on and on for no reason and you're defragging like every month?).
Having run windows and OSx, and running them at the same time at work and at home, I find I can work so much more quickly in OSx. From the small tasks that used to take time out of my day to multitasking to the apps that really seem intuitive and helpful and make my life easier. I installed Windows 8 when it first launched thinking that might be the step to bring Microsoft back into the arena with OSx and sadly it was a big step back. Not in terms of visuals or creativity or originality (which they did beautifully), but in day to day tasks it's more cumbersome and takes longer to do than in Windows 7. So I finally had to go back to 7 unfortunately.
Admittedly, there is a certain swagger factor. It's just another factor in success. We buy rolex watches, BMW's, fashionable clothes and designer eyeglasses for a reason. If all there was to life was the bare essentials without feeling good about working on the best there is to create on in our professions, we wouldn't have room for people like us in the first place.
One thing I'm just not seeing anyone make an argument for is this is definitely not the case if you do any real research on the differences. Windows people are trained to think that in general, Mac is far more expensive.
In general Macs are more expensive (for equivalent setup). I did my research. Furthermore, the Mac Mini and the iMac are more like laptops in a different form factor. You lose all the benefits you have with a PC desktop (the ability to greatly customize and expand and have power beyond what laptops can provide). For this reason I don't even understand what is the point of an iMac. You might as well buy a laptop and hook it up to an external monitor and keyboard.
If what you said was true, and Macs were better and also not more expensive than PCs, then how would you explain the 8% market share of Apple?
Because there is literally an entire industry built around Windows. IT people qualified in providing Windows systems in corporations are unlikely to migrate to an OS that puts them out of a job.
If what you said was true, and Macs were better and also not more expensive than PCs, then how would you explain the 8% market share of Apple?
First off, it's not as simple as just answering "x" amount of market share. Think about it this way: Windows based PC's have many manufacturers while Apple exclusively manufactures their own machines. It might be far more accurate to compare Apple to Dell or HP or Lenovo. You will see as as a single manufacturer, Apple competes pretty closely with large producers of PC's. Additionally, you can see that it's growing substantially.
It's kind of like lumping Android into one massive pool. It's impressive in terms of numbers, but it doesn't really mean all that much when you compare them apples to apples.
The other reason is that Windows took the business world by storm. Inexpensive and vendor based solutions like Dell made it a clear winner in business environments. You could keep a company running on XP for 10 years and it didn't matter. The setup for large corporations are clearly a more cost effective choice for Windows (for when you need 100 boxes from Dell at $350 a box with a room of 50 cloned spare hard drives ready to go if something happens). Worker drones don't need style or form or function - they just need to produce!
In general Macs are more expensive (for equivalent setup). I did my research. Furthermore, the Mac Mini and the iMac are more like laptops in a different form factor. You lose all the benefits you have with a PC desktop (the ability to greatly customize and expand and have power beyond what laptops can provide). For this reason I don't even understand what is the point of an iMac. You might as well buy a laptop and hook it up to an external monitor and keyboard."
I'm kind of beginning to agree with those saying you are looking to either troll of flamebait :)
The reality is this: everyone has a preference. You can argue until you are blue in the face as to what solution is "better" than another. That's what is so great about personal preferences, right? Linux users typically say their solution is the best around, yet are what like 2% of the market? Does the number of people on a platform determine it's worth? I happen to be able to produce faster in a Mac environment, and I think it's so much easier and more fun to work within also. My PC is a gaming rig so I just let it do what it does best. My Mac is for getting work done.
If you think Windows is awesome and people who buy Apple products are just dumb for buying over priced laptops that have no expandability - good for you man. I'm glad you're having a ball on your setup. I beg to differ. What you may need to do is get over it :)
But Jush, it was you and some others who insisted that Macs are better, not just better for you, but better in general. Some of you went as far as saying that even the hardware of Macs are better, when in fact most parts, like CPU, graphic cards etc are not even made by Apple and you can have the exact same ones and even better in any PC.
Regarding the market share issue your excuse is not really valid. The iPad has over 50% market share, and it could have even more if Apple's profit margins were not as high. Nobody will choose an Android Tablet because "many manufacturers make Android Tablets". They will choose one if it does what they want and it offers to them value for their money.
My question here was not "which is better", but about the trend among Web Developers. I don't think the answer is "Because Macs suddenly became better than PCs a couple of years ago and Web Developers are so intelligent that can realize this in rates that far exceed most other sectors"
lol.. because Macs are what the 'cool kids' buy. In my eyes computers are like basketball shoes. Does it mean that the dude with $200 shoes is better then the one with $50 kicks? I believe as long as you have the requirements for a speedy computer, the brand shouldn't matter.
And about iOS specific app development, you don't need a Mac, just write your application using PhoneGap and pay the tiny fee to convert your app into ALL platforms..
Just my two cents, but im also a Windows guy and will be forever.
@andy_unleash Macs don't have an advantage over PCs when it comes to hardware. If anything PCs win that department because for any given amount of money you can have a more powerful PC than Mac, and also PCs are easily upgradable.
Therefore the hardware can't be a reason for Web Developers to move to Macs.
To me this seems to be the most valid reason people gave so far.
Now the next question is why these "trendsetters" switch to Macs?
Maybe it has something to do with the popularity of iOS devices and the need to own a Mac to develop for them? Maybe they were intentionally trying to be different from the "crowd"? Maybe they got the trend from their colleagues who had Graphic Design background?
@croydon86 Those are just the default system settings.
I've got my CPU OC'd to 3.2GHz and my RAM set to 1866MHz with custom timings, as well as have a secondary graphics card used just for Physix processing. I've got the GTX 580 OC'd, along with custom fan speeds set to trigger at specific temperature levels.
It destroys anything I throw at it. Graphics, 3D rendering, video editing, gaming: you name it.
Needless to say, there has been no reason to upgrade any of the hardware as of yet.
@JohnMotylJr - Yeah absolutely right, all mac owners buy them to "look cool". Not to improve their workflows, better serve their customers and working styles and be more efficient for clients at all. What a bunch of tools we are LoL1!
@DrewKerriganNY wow that is pretty impressive!
My point though is this...
Believe it or not, this is how many people feel. Truth is, I have a powerful 8 core mac pro, which may not be as powerful as yours, but if I had the choice of a mac or a more powerful pc, I would choose mac for the reasons I stated in my first comment in this discussion.
lol you're right @JohnMotylJr - I go to loads of parties, and when I tell them I have a mac pro, I get all the girls! If only...
In your defence though, I do actually know people that think they're cool due to owning a mac! It is definitely an accessory for some.
@andy_unleash If your Mac works for you. Kudos! Though I must add that after you buy a Mac you're 'locked' into the hardware you buy. You CAN upgrade your hardware, but it'll cost you (especially now with the unibody) and you'll ultimately hit the ceiling that Apple designates for that model.
PC's are much more 'upgradable' and 'customizable' AFTER the initial build (within reason). You can upgrade pieces to your hearts content, and even though there is the same limit as Macs it's a much wider range.
Macs have less powerful hardware than PCs (usually 3 - 6 months behind the curve) but they use it more efficiently than PCs if you're not a tech-savvy user. PCs usually have a lower price tag and more options (Window, Linux, etc.).
At the end of the day. Does it work? Then you're good.
@DrewKerriganNY get your own mentor ;p
LOL
Haha @joshuanhibbert kinda feeling like that.
I don't think you should only consider the performance. Graphics and fonts render much much better on Mac than a PC. Even though I'm currently on a PC, I would choose OS X over Windows any day. The UI of software is just better.
no, no; you're thinking of electric skateboards.
@joshuanhibbert - the Jacko gif has just made my night!
You legend.
@chrisburton agreed! Fonts and graphics in most cases do render better on a Mac, that's just the software. I do all my web surfing on my Macbook for that reason. As far as the UI, it's subjective, I personally like both for different reasons, but again it's subjective.
I think if it was just software, you'd be able to replicate it on a PC.
@joshuanhibbert :)
All I have to say about a thread like this is ....really?
We're all friends here, right? :)
I personally like and own both. I'm a gamer so of course I've got a nice gaming rig set up but I love software like Sequel Pro and Transmit, which are on OS X. For freelance and home web development, I use my MacBook. For gaming, game development (I do both), and music production, I use my PC. But while I learned game development on a PC, I learned front end development on a Mac because that is what was made available to me at the time.
At work I develop in the .NET environment so it's lots of Microsoft stuff.
Unix based OS + Software support + UX design = Increased productivity + awesomeness. That is all.
I don't like Apple users in general. I remember trying to find out why I couldn't copy/paste when I first started using a mac, and the response was "Why would you want to copy/paste? Just move the files". You always end up getting a defensive comment instead of a solution that actually solves your specific problem - Almost as if your question is offensive to ask.
@chrisburton you can VirtualBox on a PC can run OSX ... although why you'd do it.
@theacefes I agree 100%, thank you.
"Does this mean that the Web Developers demographic are people who are richer than people in most other industries?"
One thing I'm just not seeing anyone make an argument for is this is definitely not the case if you do any real research on the differences. Windows people are trained to think that in general, Mac is far more expensive.
Mac is, in some cases, more costly but generally they are not that far away. People tend to compare apples and oranges and then debate the price. For example, you can't build a small quiet windows box for the same price you can buy a Mac Mini. You make a lot of compromises and it's still a huge ass noisy box.
You've also got to realize that once you are within the Apple ecosystem, upgrades are far less costly. In Microsoft ecosystem, a PC that is 2 years old is pretty much worthless to sell. An iMac bought 2 years ago sells for about 75% of what you paid for it. So upgrading to a new iMac is about the same price as a windows user pays for a new video card. As it stands now, the small upgrades I made on my Mac Mini actually will net me about $175 from the purchase price + the upgrades I've put in it.
An iMac may look expensive until you actually shop for a good quality monitor and find out that while you can buy a crappy TFT 27" monitor for $299, there isn't much give in spending between $800 and $1100 on a IPS 27" monitor. The extra $400 that goes into getting the rest of the specs for a 27" iMac seems pretty reasonable when you get into the details.
Move over to laptops - having used windows laptops for so many years, you finally come to the realization that buying the $500 Dell special is just a waste of time. You realize you got to spend some real money to get a good quality, long lasting laptop. So now you're shopping for ultrabooks that are $1000+. All of a sudden those MBP's that everyone bitches about the expense are now cheaper than the ones you are shopping for.
It's also not quite fair to really compare specs. The dual core Mac Mini I use for work runs circles around my quad core decked out PC because windows over time slows down (you know, when your hard drive just rambles on and on for no reason and you're defragging like every month?).
Having run windows and OSx, and running them at the same time at work and at home, I find I can work so much more quickly in OSx. From the small tasks that used to take time out of my day to multitasking to the apps that really seem intuitive and helpful and make my life easier. I installed Windows 8 when it first launched thinking that might be the step to bring Microsoft back into the arena with OSx and sadly it was a big step back. Not in terms of visuals or creativity or originality (which they did beautifully), but in day to day tasks it's more cumbersome and takes longer to do than in Windows 7. So I finally had to go back to 7 unfortunately.
Admittedly, there is a certain swagger factor. It's just another factor in success. We buy rolex watches, BMW's, fashionable clothes and designer eyeglasses for a reason. If all there was to life was the bare essentials without feeling good about working on the best there is to create on in our professions, we wouldn't have room for people like us in the first place.
In general Macs are more expensive (for equivalent setup). I did my research. Furthermore, the Mac Mini and the iMac are more like laptops in a different form factor. You lose all the benefits you have with a PC desktop (the ability to greatly customize and expand and have power beyond what laptops can provide). For this reason I don't even understand what is the point of an iMac. You might as well buy a laptop and hook it up to an external monitor and keyboard.
If what you said was true, and Macs were better and also not more expensive than PCs, then how would you explain the 8% market share of Apple?
Because there is literally an entire industry built around Windows. IT people qualified in providing Windows systems in corporations are unlikely to migrate to an OS that puts them out of a job.
Why would OSX put IT people out of a job?
First off, it's not as simple as just answering "x" amount of market share. Think about it this way: Windows based PC's have many manufacturers while Apple exclusively manufactures their own machines. It might be far more accurate to compare Apple to Dell or HP or Lenovo. You will see as as a single manufacturer, Apple competes pretty closely with large producers of PC's. Additionally, you can see that it's growing substantially.
It's kind of like lumping Android into one massive pool. It's impressive in terms of numbers, but it doesn't really mean all that much when you compare them apples to apples.
The other reason is that Windows took the business world by storm. Inexpensive and vendor based solutions like Dell made it a clear winner in business environments. You could keep a company running on XP for 10 years and it didn't matter. The setup for large corporations are clearly a more cost effective choice for Windows (for when you need 100 boxes from Dell at $350 a box with a room of 50 cloned spare hard drives ready to go if something happens). Worker drones don't need style or form or function - they just need to produce!
I'm kind of beginning to agree with those saying you are looking to either troll of flamebait :)
The reality is this: everyone has a preference. You can argue until you are blue in the face as to what solution is "better" than another. That's what is so great about personal preferences, right? Linux users typically say their solution is the best around, yet are what like 2% of the market? Does the number of people on a platform determine it's worth? I happen to be able to produce faster in a Mac environment, and I think it's so much easier and more fun to work within also. My PC is a gaming rig so I just let it do what it does best. My Mac is for getting work done.
If you think Windows is awesome and people who buy Apple products are just dumb for buying over priced laptops that have no expandability - good for you man. I'm glad you're having a ball on your setup. I beg to differ. What you may need to do is get over it :)
But Jush, it was you and some others who insisted that Macs are better, not just better for you, but better in general. Some of you went as far as saying that even the hardware of Macs are better, when in fact most parts, like CPU, graphic cards etc are not even made by Apple and you can have the exact same ones and even better in any PC.
Regarding the market share issue your excuse is not really valid. The iPad has over 50% market share, and it could have even more if Apple's profit margins were not as high. Nobody will choose an Android Tablet because "many manufacturers make Android Tablets". They will choose one if it does what they want and it offers to them value for their money.
My question here was not "which is better", but about the trend among Web Developers. I don't think the answer is "Because Macs suddenly became better than PCs a couple of years ago and Web Developers are so intelligent that can realize this in rates that far exceed most other sectors"